2024 US Nats Womens SP - Qs Will Roll

[Jammers]

Might be best if Amber if not leading going into the LP that way she can feel like she's chasing and not being chased.

 

[Karen-W]

Might be best if Amber if not leading going into the LP that way she can feel like she's chasing and not being chased.

Didn't help her at SkAm where she was behind both Loena & Isabeau.

 

[Rukia]

Didn't help her at SkAm where she was behind both Loena & Isabeau.

Edited to say jk she came in 2nd she just beat isabeau

 

[Karen-W]

Edited to say jk she came in 2nd she just beat isabeau

I forgot... but, yeah... I don't think with the scores as close as they are that this will take any pressure off of Amber.

 

[Rukia]

I forgot... but, yeah... I don't think with the scores as close as they are that this will take any pressure off of Amber.

oh I agree haha but who knows maybe this will be the time...stranger things have happened

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Edited to say jk she came in 2nd she just beat isabeau

oops didn’t read clearly what you said

 

[Simone411]

oh I agree haha but who knows maybe this will be the time...stranger things have happened

There certainly has been stranger things like when Paul Wylie won silver at the 1992 Olympics. No one expected that to happen, and I was so happy for him.

 

[JeffClair1979]

Now that I am back at my hotel and had some time to process everything, here are some more of my thoughts that literally nobody asked for.

The last time I attended a live skating competition was Nationals in 2020, which as we know was ever just so close to the blow up of you know what. It feels so good to be able to get here this week, it wasn't a sure thing until maybe 3 weeks ago. The one thing I forgot about the difference between seeing it live vs. watching on Peacock, is that when you're actually in the arena, there are energies in the room that you can't really detect when you're watching it on TV.

Some examples:

Brooke Gewalt- I doubt I would have thought much about her short program if I had been watching on TV, it being an early group and all, but the energy she exuded was strong, joyful, not a hint of nerves on the outside. It was an outstanding performance from someone who only found out a few weeks ago she would even be there. She should be very proud of her work today.

Sarah Everhardt- I randomly watched her in the warm up a lot, she caught my eye for some reason. I know I've seen her before, probably for a few years at nats on the low end of the standings, but whatever she has done to make the improvements she has made deserves all the respekt. She had BOSS energy the whole warm up and her whole program. It was incredible.

OK, so: Isabeau vs Amber. When Isabeau finished up her program, I was 100% certain that Amber would lead, but only by a point and a half or less. So did everyone sitting around me. Needless to say, we were all kind of surprised when Isabeau's score was announced. Sure, Isabeau has a bit more musicality and line than Amber, but Amber has that power and grit, her jumps are HUGE and she is thrilling to watch every second she is on the ice. They each have their own strength, and they excel at them, so it SHOULD be close when they both skate well. The free skate always shakes things out in the end.

Ok, I need to sleep, who can even dream of the bullshittery that awaits tomorrow.

 

[JeffClair1979]

Oh, also, I really like Nationwide Arena as a venue. It seems intimate and close to the action while still feeling like it's a really big place. The concourses are easy, bathrooms are close, and the lines for concessions didn't seem nuts any time I was near them. Parking is plentiful, close, and affordable. 10/10 would attend another skating event here.

 

[Private Citizen]

HATE that setup pattern for the combo. Almost surely the Lutz wasn’t rotated, and I doubt the toe was clean. Now a single Axel. And a flip that should be ‘e’ with -3 GOE at best, and it looked short, too.

Still the best program.

Still shouldn’t even be in the top ten. Combo 3Lz<<+3T< (-5), no points for the axel, and 3Feq (-4), which would be generous. 3Fe< (-5) possible with a strict caller.

Granted, it’s not just Thorngren who wasn’t getting the calls. I feel like these results would be totally different judged by an international panel. Sometimes by 5 or more placements.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

No, Ashley and Adam have talked about this on the chaos podcast after Skate America. What they've said before is her speed is fast, but she slows considerably going into jumps and her jumps are odd, so the perception is she's slow.

Yes, it was just interesting timing with Johnny saying she was slow on the other feed.

 

[Aceon6]

Granted, it’s not just Thorngren who wasn’t getting the calls.

Johnny pointed out three non-calls and I saw at least two more. Of the non-calls that were shown, two were clear UR and one a Q. None were flagged for review. I found the spin levels suspect as well.

Can someone chime in on how long Lab and Tanner have been calling and what their patterns are?

 

[tony]

Johnny pointed out three non-calls and I saw at least two more. Of the non-calls that were shown, two were clear UR and one a Q. None were flagged for review. I found the spin levels suspect as well.

Can someone chime in on how long Lab and Tanner have been calling and what their patterns are?

Honestly I don’t think it matters how long any of them have been calling when it comes to Nationals. It’s the same story every year, and so many people run with this concept of skaters ‘showing great improvement’ because of the boost in scores. The GOEs are always through the roof and a lot of the time, the PCS is too. Although not relevant to this thread, I bet Malinin will pull some PCS of 9.5+

I’m happy to see more and more people on-board with the ridiculousness of looking the other way, though.

 

[thvu]

Wow. Just catching up and US Nationals Women’s judging & calling never disappoints in a “we all got drunk and are going off vibes” sort of way.

Absolutely atrocious. You can’t even call this good faith disagreement. Just flagrant disregard for the rules and guidelines.

 

[taf2002]

1992 Skate America - Mens Short Program - David Liu TPE

youtu.be

This wins.

OT- still Savoie FTW.

Why is Amber letting Isabeau have the advantage technically re her jump content? If she had had the same or better base value then she wins here after that spin error. I'm thinking that a skater who can master a 3A could at least match the content of their biggest rival.

 

[MorganaLefay]

Was really impressed w Thorgren skating skills, she is so fluid. Amber is fast going into the jumps (which are huge) but the steps are not as good. But she shld have been first last night.

 

[Wyliefan]

Wow. Just catching up and US Nationals Women’s judging & calling never disappoints in a “we all got drunk and are going off vibes” sort of way.

Absolutely atrocious. You can’t even call this good faith disagreement. Just flagrant disregard for the rules and guidelines.

And it's not fair to the skaters. It's not like they're going to be handled with kid gloves on the international scene.

 

[Simone411]

OT- still Savoie FTW.

Why is Amber letting Isabeau have the advantage technically re her jump content? If she had had the same or better base value then she wins here after that spin error. I'm thinking that a skater who can master a 3A at least match the content of their biggest rival.

What I'm thinking is that Amber probably wanted a good clean program and she definitely brought that. I'm thinking she'll be doing "better content" for the long program including the 3A. She proved to herself last night how good it all was plus she just simply enjoyed it and had a little fun. And IMO, I thought she should have had a higher score than Isabeau.

 

[Rukia]

I think Amber pulled back on the steps on purpose tbh. Her problem is usually having too much power. She gets sloppy and makes silly mistakes or rushes the timing on her jumps, so it feels like this may be something they have been working on- pulling her back, keeping her in the moment, and trying to keep things from spinning out of control.

 

[Coco]

Absolutely atrocious. You can’t even call this good faith disagreement. Just flagrant disregard for the rules and guidelines.

Imagine American Football was an international sport, but the field in one country was significantly shorter and wider, yet everyone insisted it was the same.

It's absurd and frankly embarrassing. NO WONDER THE COACHING DOESN'T CHANGE.

 

[tony]

And it's not fair to the skaters. It's not like they're going to be handled with kid gloves on the international scene.

But how many times have we gone through these discussions on FSU and people start saying that they don’t like when technical panels go to town for elements?

I’ve been advocating for the same thing for over 20 years, before IJS was even around, and people have pretty often commented on my meticulous eye being way too negative when it comes to take off edges, and rotations. Sometimes I feel pretty solo in these arguments and even have to post slo-mo or stills of the really awful calls.

As far as doing the skaters no justice, I remember I even wrote a long blog in 2013 when the US judges were throwing 8+ PCS at Max Aaron when international judges were going to knock it down a good 2-3 points. I’ve also questioned why judges look the other way at Nationals as if that’s going to make international judges do the same- and honestly, sometimes the panels are lenient internationally, too. There were posters here mad about me pointing out Ashley Wagner’s massive under rotation in on her 3+3’s and the argument was ‘well the technical panels are trained and they don’t agree’. We all know about me pointing out Miyahara’s complete lack of ability to rotate certain triples through her career. Once at Nationals they showed her badly downgraded Lutz about 5 times on the replay and it wasn’t even reviewed IIRC.

When it is clear as day that a skater is not rotating a jump, it needs to be called. When the edge never even attempts to be correct on the takeoff, it needs to be called. But then people think that it’s selective on their favorite skaters.

 

[Vagabond]

1992 Skate America - Mens Short Program - David Liu TPE

youtu.be

This wins.

Aw hell no!!!

M. SAVOIE - 2006 US NATIONALS - FS

MATT SAVOIE - 2006 US NATIONALS - FS

www.youtube.com

I am a Savoyard, but the good thing here is that we don't really need to rank these. One is a Short Program, and the other is a Free Skate.

And here we have yet another thread stolen by Matt Savoie!

 

[mtnskater]

Interesting comments here. Five of the six friends I have tickets with here in Columbus said they would have Isabeau first above Amber after the short based upon Isabeau’s more difficult jump content and beautiful edging and held out positions, presentation and speed. Isabeau jumped triple lutz/triple toe and triple flip to Amber’s triple flip/triple toe and triple loop. The two are like apples and oranges stylistically. We stood up for both skaters. Knew it would be close…and it was. Fun to see Isabeau with real competition.

Isabeau was absolutely stunning live. The new short is gorgeous. Her edging, flow and speed is gorgeous along with her lines and positions. A stand out in the world in that regard. Yes she breaks down the speed into her jumps in competiton. I noticed in the practices here there were times when she did not break down her speed into the jumps and they were less successful. So it appears she is working on it.

Amber does not hold out her edges that much and doesn’t show deep edges as much. She is quick sharp and fast. Her jump technique is more desirable. Her spins are good and the positions are nice but not as beautiful. Isabeau’s first back camel variation spin was beautiful. However, the other two spin mistakes are not good and it appears she is not practicing them enough. She can’t give away points like that. Flipping out of the Bielmann at the end kind of killed what might have been a bigger standing O from the audience.

Watched both back on Peacock this morning. I think Adam and Ashley’s analysis of the two was spot on and I really enjoyed hearing their thoughts.

Also a I felt like there are quite a few good junior skaters coming up and making their senior debut here. Was bummed Elyce-Lynn’s consistency eluded her. Lindsey looked frozen in fear but she is a stunning skater and had the best choreographed short program of the event. Would have loved to see that clean and skated with confidence.

I still think Amber has a good shot of winning this! Exciting competition!

 

[once_upon]

Frankly, Amber has boring is a program and she doesn't have much connection to the music. I thought I'd grow to like it as the season went on - but it's just not there

Isabeau-im not a fan either. I'm over the hype.

But I've not found a women's skater to get behind this season - no matter which country.

 

[Rukia]

And here we have yet another thread stolen by Matt Savoie!

next time we're having another useless argument in a thread we need to start filling it with Matt Savoie

 

[tony]

next time we're having another useless argument in a thread we need to start filling it with Matt Savoie

I don’t mind if it’s Savoie or Liu talk. I was hoping this would still be online for some proof :

Interview With Tony Wheeler

2013 interview with figure skating influencer Tony Wheeler

skateguard1.blogspot.com

Q: Who is the most underrated figure skater of all time?

A: Hmm. I'm going to have to say David Liu. He didn't have the difficult jumps, but his presentation was light years ahead of most of the men he competed with. More recently, I don't think Matt Savoie was ever respected as much as he should have been.

 

[rfisher]

The winner of the Amber vs Isabeau skate off will be the skater who goes the cleanest. And Mia is going to nail her 2 quads and come in third so everyone can point out how important the SP is.

And Chock will win.

The As are treating their commentary like their podcasts. They are not the same. You talk all the time in a podcast. You do not talk during the skate in live events. They can talk when the skate is finished and scores are being announced. And they should NOT be doing the commentary for pair or dance because they don't know anything about either. This shows their inexperience in broadcasting. Moreover, you can absolutely tell when they are reading from a script. Their delivery is stilted and boring. But, 99% of skaters make terrible commentators.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Imagine American Football was an international sport, but the field in one country was significantly shorter and wider, yet everyone insisted it was the same.

It's absurd and frankly embarrassing. NO WONDER THE COACHING DOESN'T CHANGE.

I mean, i don't think that's an apt comparison at all. It's not like this happens at every US competition. Or even that it only happens at U.S. nationals. U.S. Nationals are flagrantly ridiculous, true, but some other nationals are as well. I think any country where calling is not as stringent as it is internationally is doing their skaters and their program a huge disservice.

For one thing, Nationals is used to help decide international assignments throughout the following year. Shouldn't those be decided based on the way international callers will call things, not based on fantasy?

That being said, international calling is also pretty frustratingly inconsistent. It's much better than the calling at nationals in countries that like to look the other way, but it's still not as fair or consistent as one would hope.

 

[4rkidz]

Well, that was a fun evening. Sure hope there's a link for us Canucks to be able to watch the men's SP tomorrow.
Good night, all.

so far so good I just checked that link and still working - so hopefully when I get back from work can watch the men's short

 

[gkelly]

Imagine American Football was an international sport, but the field in one country was significantly shorter and wider, yet everyone insisted it was the same.

Ha, most rinks in the US and I think Canada are NHL sized, even at competition venues, whereas elsewhere in the world they are usually Olympic sized. (Except in some newer skating countries where only nonstandard, usually smaller, ice surfaces are available -- but they don't host ISU competitions.)

Skaters have complained about having to adjust for different sized ice surfaces at different competitions. But there's not much that can be done about it, e.g., if an arena that usually hosts hockey doesn't have the infrastructure to put together an Olympic-sized surface.

Not exactly the same issue that you raise in terms of fairness, but your mention of the field size made me think of this.